A Moral/Introspective Question for Equestrians

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powerticker

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I had a discussion with another friend of mine the other night on equestrian as a sport and horseback riding as a past time. My friend said equestrian in some way is an activity that goes against nature. He said the act of dressage was purely an activity of using the horse against his/her own will for the pleasure of human being. The same could be said about showjumping. In some way, he was wondering why we would want to stable up a horse and domesticating him/her while it was meant for him to be a creature as part of the environment. Needless to say, we had a great argument.

He said similarly, he would not want to be bridled up by some form of living creature of a higher pecking order or of higher intelligence one day simply to perform amazing tasks for the pleasure of others.

I would like to share my experience with other equestrians around the world. Have you ever been in a rather heated discussion of a similar nature with any of your friends? If so, what are your thoughts on this topic of equestrian as a sport of cruelty or as an activity against nature?
 
So, basically, he is saying that we should not ride, because it is not 'natural'?

This leads me onto a topic I think of often, and htis is what is the point of riding? Why do we do it?

It was started as a form of getting from A to B quicker. Of course this is not the modern day purpose. I don't have a modern day reason. Personally, I ride because I like horses. I don't have a better reason. Maybe that's a little pathetic, but do I need to have a reason? Why do people play football? Why do people go swimming? Why do people do anything?

We have to do things with our lives, because otherwise we would do nothing.

Going more specifically onto the subject of dressage, why do people compete inthis? What is their aim? I do not compete, but I know if I did it would be to 'show-off' how the actions of a horse at liberty (so free of a rider) can also be performed with a rider, and when the rider wants.

I don't know why people want a horse to be able to counter-canter, leg yield etc, but do we need to have reasons for everything?

And as an afterthough, I think that if an discipline involving a horse makes the horse perform actions against it's own will, this is not a true form of equestrianism. Yes, a horse may not naturally go and perform a dresage test, but there is a difference between the animal being forced and the animal being asked. Just because it may not be natural, doesn't mean it has to be forced.
 
You should ask mikka about this. She's done a lot of thinking and soul-searching on the subject.

My own feeling is that yes, without doubt riding is an "unatural" activity. But very little of life is natural, with or without horses.

Do horses enjoy being part of this? Hard to answer - certainly the vast majority enjoy the interaction, the companionship, the games and the ability to exercise brain and body. We owe it too them to ensure that what we ask causes no distress but I think they gain a great deal in return for what they give - far greater life expectancy, less suffering, and a lot of attention.

I also think most horses would be quite content not to be ridden. Just as most dogs would be more than happy never fetching sticks and most cats would be perfectly cheerful if they never had to learn to live in a house. But life is about entering a partnership with the creatures we share it with, and as long as it's equal, I don't see a problem.

As far as being harnessed and made to work for the gain of others - well most of us do that daily too. (And yes, I am becoming twisted and cynical in my old age).
 
Putting shoes on goes against nature. So does brushing our teeth, corrective lenses, writing and reading, exercising for the sake of exercise, and refrigerating food so that it's available any time, rather than going out to hunt/gather.

I haven't worked with many feral horses, but I've worked with quite a few feral dogs; judging from that experience, I think that domesticated animals, forced to live in proximity with people, are probably happier when they have a relationship with people.

Unlike domesticated dogs, horses do actually have a way to live wild; this is partly because lots of people have fought to keep that habitat available. (Speaking of going against nature! *Ceasing* to overrun land and use it for our purposes goes against nature, too.) Those horses do seem like they live pleasant enough lives, although they are often lives of hardship. What I've seen of various documentaries on wild horses shows horses who are often thin, look wormy to me, and are very scarred. That's "natural." There are good things about a natural life--they can walk as far as they'd like, they can pick and choose what plants to eat, they can seek another place if their surroundings don't suit them, and they can find companionship that suits them.

When we domesticate a horse, I think we provide a lot in exchange for what we take away in terms of a wild life. Among other things, our care provides them with much more than a life expectancy of 6 years. I think we give them comfortable lives. I do think we should give domesticated horses lives that allow for their physical needs; some forms of equine management do not provide for much turnout time or for trickle feeding, for instance, which isn't terrific for their bodies. I think most horses are pretty happy domesticated, though, and I think horse owners as a whole tend to try to give their horses good lives.

Riding--sure, riding isn't "natural," but there isn't much in this life that is. There are probably horses who do not like riding or anything to do with it. Most horses who are handled and ridden well seem not to mind. Quite a few seem to enjoy it.

Mine is getting very frustrated with me; I've been "grounded" by a back problem snce December, and she's starting to object to being lunged for exercise--I'll often lunge before riding, and she keeps trying to cut the lunging session short and come up to me. I honestly think she is trying to get me to stop lunging and ride. She behaves similarly any time I have to stop riding for more than a week or so. I think that either she enjoys being ridden, or she enjoys pleasing her person enough to try to put herself in a position where she can receive the kind of praise and affection that she gets from riding. She likes what riding does for her, one way or another.

I don't think it's unfair to the horse to domesticate him, keep him as a pet, and ride him.
 
I've never been in a heated discussion with one of my friends about this, but I do have an opinion on this subject!:D

If the horse had never been domesticated, it probably wouldnt exist today. It is only because of the partnership between horses and people that we have been able to advance technologically & that they have been able to survive.

Most horses enjoy their work, especially jumping & trying to force an animal that can weigh up to a tonne to do something it doesnt want to is plain stupidity, so if they didnt enjoy their work, we'd probably all be dead trying to make them!!!

I have a pony on loan who I have every faith that if she didnt want me to ride her, she'd get me off! Likewise if she didnt want to be saddled or bridled, she wouldnt let me; but she does, which just shows me that she does enjoy her work really. She hates dressage with a vengence & cant do too much jumping, but she's happy just charging around on hacks. Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that as long as you listen to your horse and dont force it to do something it physically or mentally cant, then there's nothing wrong with riding them.
 
i have got a video that is all about horses and how they use their senses and things to communicate with each other, in a herd and with humans it also points out what Volvic said that without humans it is possible that horses would now be extinct:(
 
I'm not sure if anyone's really spent a lot of time watching free and/or wild horses, but if you have, you will see that they do preform some of the actions that are deemed "unnatural" such as the lengthening/extension and shortening/collection in the stride. While this is very basic, it does not end here.

In the early airs-above-the-ground training, these horses were trained based upon what early trainers had seen other horses doing whilst out in fields together. While courbettes and caprioles seem rather extraordinary, they're "bumped up" versions of what horses have actually done.

I think riding, for all intents and purposes, is exercise. So, if that's truly unnatural, and people say that they wouldn't want some higher-being making you preform for them, then why do people go to the gym? Why do people make themselves suffer great lengths for some exercise?

When people say that they don't want to be "ridden" or anything, it always makes me laugh because human beings aren't good for very much anymore. We have highly developed brains, which have evolved us into rather lazy (if you think about it, we don't walk places: we drive. We don't cook meals anymore, we order in) individuals. That's just my opinion.
 
Bloss, would love to know the name of your video.

I have thought about this and the fact that horses are at the mercy of humans, the same way children are at the mercy of adults. If a child lives in a dysfunctional or abusive environment, they are helpless to get out of it. The same for a horse, if it is in a cruel or poor environment, it is also helpless. They depend on humans for everything- food, water, healthcare, companionship, love and kindness.

It is kind of scary, really. I like to think that most horses (and children) are in a kind and nurturing environment, but . . .

I have also thought that like children, horses raised domestically don't even know about being free or doing whatever they want in the wild. Most children don't have any experience except their own family life and think that is normal, even if it's not. Horses know only what they have experienced and so if raised in a caring situation, I like to think they are happy to interact with humans and even be ridden.

As far as dressage goes, that reminds me of General Patton who said, even as he rescued the Lipizzaners, that he didn't see the point of horses "wiggling their butts"!!
 
First thing is----- has he ever tried to "make" a horse do something it doesn't want to,I bet he hasn't. Second thing is does he drive a car, that's really unatural & of course he shouldn't wear clothes & should hunt for his food :D:D Tell him to find out more about it, it is after all horses just playing our games with us( this is what they must think they are)
 
Unless the person advancing this point of view is a strict vegan (eats no animal products, wears no leather, etc.) and owns no pets, they are a hypocrite.

If society lived by the maxim of only doing what is "natural", we would still live in caves, or be swinging from the trees.
 
recent experience

I have owned my horse for nearly two years and up until recently I felt that him letting me ride was kind of a 'favor' and in return I boarded him at a facility that lets him be a horse all the rest of the time. He has turnout 24/7 on 26 acres with a pond but also got his own stall in case the weather is terrible and for feeding.
I made sure that during the week at least one of my visits would be strictly for grooming, grazing, no riding, etc.

Regardless of my efforts to make him life a life as natural as possible he developed a habit called cribbing.

In recent weeks I have decided to ride more frequently. Honestly that decision was strictly based on my wish to become a better rider. More saddle time was needed.

What resulted however was a turn for the better in my horse!
He comes to the gate. He willingly reaches for the bit. But best of all: his cribbing has reduced noticably.
All around he seems more at peace with himself. Happy, content, energetic.

He is not a mustang. He is a Throughbred. Performing and working has been bred into his genes. Having no job to do just leaves him bored and anxious.
In my mind this might be similar to Border Collies- smart active dogs, that can be a lot of trouble, if they have nothing to do- or wonderful working dogs if allowed to do what they are bred for.
 
If you look back through history you'll find that some animals have chosen to survive by remaining wild, while others have seen certain benefits in teaming up with us humans - horses (like dogs and cats) being a case in point. In return for the protection we afford them they lend themselves very easily to domestication, and they allow us to use and abuse them in all sorts of ways.

I daresay there are plenty of badly treated or misunderstood horses and ponies around who would rather not be ridden. But on the whole, if a horse is happy, healthy and trusts his owner, I believe that, natural or not, he can genuinely enjoy performing the tasks he's asked to perform.

I'm 100% satisfied that my own horses have been happy to cart me about the countryside, jump a few logs, play at lungeing now and again, and maybe try out a few dressage movements here and there. They enjoy the interest of learning something new and they love the praise when they get it right. All in all, provided being ridden doesn't hurt or frighten them (and there's no good reason why it should if we're careful) I'm quite sure they regard it simply as a part of the attention they need and deserve; in fact, I've known plenty of horses who have postively sulked if their human partner has decided to ride another horse!
 
Your friend should meet Heather Moffett's Hispano Arab, If ever there was a horse who loves people and his work he's one.

he has a "look at me" air about him and you cannot help but be spell bound by him. As Heather was riding him round the school she said, " he keeps offering Spanish walk, I'll have to let him do it or we'll not hear then end of it" or words to that effect, She then said to the horse "go on then" at which he proceeded round the school in the most extravegant Spanish walk you have ever seen.

On every circuit he was desperate to come and chat to us and kept an eye on HIS audience the whole time....just to make sure we were looking at HIM.

Now after watching that horse if anyone can, with hand on heart, tell me he was not enjoying himself I'll listen to their reasons.

Some breeds of horse are bred to work in this way and find it comes so naturally to them.

If they didn't want to work why do all our lot try to get into the indoor school, it means only one thing to them, work and getting tacked up, If they didn't want to play silly devils with us humnans why don't they all bog off to the other end of thier hill park so we cannot find them?

Why does Andy Pants actually put his head into his collar when you produce it? it means one thing, going in his cart.

I almost feel sorry for folk who have never had such a deep and loving bond with an animal like a horse, they will never understand the truly deep and almost telepathic empathy which flows both ways when you have the right "partnership"

Even our old House cow has a bond with us, she understands us and we understand her, she makes her wishes quite plain and knows how top manipulate us to HER hadvantage.

So turn the question round and ask him, how would he feel in a force 12 gale just to make a horses life a comfy as possible away from the elements, feeding, mucking out and generally looking to ther well being, the door swings both ways.
 
Powerticker - does this friend of yours WORK? Unless he is working for himself in a job he absolutely loves, he is probably just as bridled and performing tasks when he would rather be slobbing out, as most horses!
Your average horse works for about an hour a day - say 6 hours a week - for his probably quite luxurious keep - nice work if you can get it!
Where would most horses be, if people didn't love riding? Not too many would be kept in the manner they would like to be.
Get real!
 
Wally - Heather's Arab is lucky that he has a rider as good as Heather. She is one of the few rider's than can really not restrain the horse's movement , making it so much more free, and it must be so much more enjoyable for the horse to not have the restraint of a normal rider.

If all horse's had rider's such as Heather, I wonder if there would be so many more happy, eager to work and please horses.
 
Originally posted by Wally
As Heather was riding him round the school she said, " he keeps offering Spanish walk, I'll have to let him do it or we'll not hear then end of it" or words to that effect,
Click to expand...

I know what that's like - I enjoy trick training but the downside is that whenever he learns a new trick he's a devil for showing it off to all and sundry (particulary anyone who looks like they might have a treat in their pocket that they weren't planning on giving to him) - it's a real dilemma because you know you shouldn't praise him unless he's been cued but it is such a deliberate attempt to interact that its hard to ignore - you can see his minding whipping through his repetoire for the right level of cuteness.... :o

Horse riding isn't 'natural' but what is? If we only do 'natural' things - everyone should fling off their clothes, burn their belongings and return to whence we came to live in small hunter gatherer societies - unfortunately there's 6billion of us
 
I often think that, but the fact is, horses are extremely strong, if they didnt want to do something we asked them to do there was no way we could make them. If horses didnt like being trained, they wouldnt let us do it, same with dressage and showjumping, if they didnt want to do it, they wouldnt. Horses are sociable animals, they choose to co-operate, and some horses like their work. Charlie for example, some of you may have seen my thread on this in the Cafe Area, jumped a double of completely his own free will. It was across a diagonal, so he could have kept going round the school, but he acctually chose to turn, no one eslse was in the school, so no one was making him, and there was plenty of room between fences to run out, and he didnt. He obviously likes his job and does it for fun or he wouldnt do it. Some horses like to jump and others dont, some are good in their flat and some arent.
A lot of people do try and make their horses lives as natural as possible, having them out all year, not clipped or bitted or shod. SOme horses however, are bred to be stable kept. The fine Thoroughbred wouldn't do as well out all year as say, a Conemmara, or a Shetland, as the TB is bred to be indoors. There is a lot of Natural Horsemanship like Parelli around at the moment, whoich I certainly do and Im sure many others to give our horses more natural lifestyles. And while yes, jumping my pony round a course of brightly coloured fences at 1m05 high is not natural, but if my pony didn't want to do it, he would tell us, he would stop, or throw us off, or not go in the ring. SHaka used to stop a lot, he told us he didn't like his job, so I sto0pped him gave him a break and reschooled him. He didnt want to jump, and I didn't force him. A lot of horses get the choice, yes it isn't natural, but remember, its all that domestic bred horses know.
Yes it could be described as a 'sport against nature' but certainly not cruelty, horses can kill us with one swift kick, they choose not to, so we must be doing something right.
 
I agree with Galadriel. I mean if you look at it like that we would be running around naked!!! I mean what does he think about domestic cats or dogs? I mean I know we ride horses but it doesn't hurt them and some horses really enjoy working. And what does he think about the indians riding and training horses. Where did he get that dressage and show jumping were cruel I mean dressage is very good for them and show jumping is not bad you just have to take care of them.

Anna
 
Although I think that it's possible to use a horse "against it's will," I don't think that it results in a happy and successful animal and a good partnership.

Certainly, horses that are ridden in competition are "working horses," just as many of us are "working people." The question is, do we feel that we're forced to work against our wills like slaves, or do we enjoy our work and find it challenging and rewarding. Personally, I can say the latter about my own work and I hope that my horse feels the same way about his. I think that any sensitive rider wants a horse that brings something to the table.
 
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